#hws meta

[pedantic-coffee]

one of the critiques of Hetalia is that “personification of countries is such an unoriginal idea!!!” which, sure, yeah... but Hetalia offers the unique spin on such an old concept by asking the very important question:

“what if they were all salty about it?”

[trobairitzposting]

this is a really interesting interpretation! I also prefer HRE growing up, (I think he's fully grown by the 1300s or so) but I don't have him as Prussia's father, more like a distant lord since if I remember right, Prussia was never directly part of the empire, only Brandenburg. (I use my friend's Brandenburg OC for this) I think HRE and Brandenburg would be pretty close, and HRE thinks of Prussia as Brandenburg's weird coworker.

ALSO I AGREE, GILBERT IS PRETTY YOUNG. I use my friend's interpretation who also has him born around 1190. He's young compared to France, Spain, even England. I like some interpretations of Prussia where he represents the Old Prussians and adapts/survives the crusades, but I think it's necessary to change a lot from canon. Like he would have to be an adult already in the 12th century, and canon shows him as a kid even in the 13th century. imo nations don't always have "parents" in the way that humans do, they're just little dirt babies. sometimes they have a "parent" type figure, but it's not necessary. Berti just crawled out of a bog one day.

Canon Germania representing a memory of one of the Germanic tribes also makes sense! I've attached him vaguely to the Visigoths in my brain but Cherusci is such a good idea. It fits with the theme of Germanic/Roman clashing, and makes sense that Rome might remember him better than anybody else.

is germania even real. we as a society must discuss this.

[autumnslance]

The worst part too about the Paladin quests is it's Heavensward that's most egregious. It honestly feels like someone had no idea what was going on, or didn't care, or left, and their colleagues left holding the bag with this mess of a story had no idea what to do with it.

ARR Gladiator quests are fine! They're along the lines of the other Class quests, intro you to the job and a complicated character dynamic, and it's a decent time.

The ARR Paladin quests...are just boring. They aren't actually even that bad, they're just...utterly predictable, bog-standard tropes and plot line where you can see everything coming malms away. But they have an internal logic to them that builds on the politics and scheming in Ul'dah. Jenlyns realizes he's an unwitting pawn of the Syndicate, and he was literally chosen for the job cuz he could be easily duped and controlled. He doesn't even get to have imposter syndrome, he's actually unfit for the job (and then strives to do better, leveraging support from Papashan and Mylla to shore up his own weaknesses, which is admirable!).

...Nevermind that traditional Paladins in general are a bad fit for Ul'dah. The heavily armored Sultansworn makes no sense in that desert environment, and looking at a world map we can even see that Southern Thanalan seems to be on the equator. Like it's not even a case of "it's cooler than it seems cuz they're further north." Because they're not. And I know the devs wanted to have Ishgard perhaps be a starter city but that was scrapped due to time and resources, fine but um.

Dragoons are still trained in Coerthas, by Coerthans. Why didn't they just...do that with Paladins? Keep Gladiator in Ul'dah, where it makes sense as presented. But then have to work with Temple Knights to get the Job. Especially since after Ul'dah's intro, the game just forgets the Sultansworn exist and they have no bearing on the MSQ the way the other factions in Ul'dah do. Not even in the finale of ARR's arc where it would make sense. Gladiators are a constant in other side quests and MSQ both.

Stormblood Paladin is also fine--because it goes back to those Gladiators, and we interact with Paladins and Knights across the realm, and deal with those complicated relationships between the Gladiator guild core members. It's internally logical in its drama about finally restoring Aldis's reputation and place in Ul'dah, against the backdrop of the tournament.

Heavensward Paladin straight up makes no sense. Solkzaygl's actions are entirely contradictory to his character and arc from ARR. There's no way for some of the actions to occur without him working with the outlaws in some way. Instead of teaching Constaint, he sends him on a merry chase across Coerthas to learn on his own, and it's only the WoL's aid that sees the boy live, let alone make progress. A random man dies, guilt-ridden, due to Solk's scheming and lies he confided to this poor guy.

And then Highlander-esque "there can be only one" nonsense. Even as a Highlander fangirl in my youth, it was insulting and awful. Papashan, Jenlyns, and Constaint all call out how nonsense, illogical, unlikely, and stupid this whole story is...all to make a sword shine.

Because there's no internal logic to events, let alone the reason for the string of happenstance that leads to the finale.

And we know it's possible; HW Blacksmith gives us a fantastic paladin story! One that fits Ishgard's storyline and HW's themes. HW Dark Knight is also a good paladin story, actually, as they are meant to be another angle on the concept of dedicated knight defenders. Samurai for the Eastern equivalent, and the concepts and tropes present in those quest chains.

But the job actually bearing the name "Paladin" is left in the dirt. As a fan of the concept across various games (video and TTRPGs both), it's quite frustrating how the devs had no idea what to do with this job, despite other members of the writing and scenario team presenting stories that would have fit perfectly well within the framework. Only some of it is misplacing where Paladins originate in the setting; the rest is not taking advantage of the themes and setting of the expansions, and just not caring enough about the characters and story to even try, compared to the rest. Or worse, they did try, and meant for more, but whatever intrigue and complex plot they wanted to create was too much for 5 quests and no guarantee the arc would continue in the future, even if it had landed perfectly.

[tirsynni]

More random Hyrule Warriors thoughts:

Due to one portion of the game, people tend to focus on pride as the major theme of the game. I strongly disagree with it, because it is literally only featured in one portion of the game. I would argue that instead an accidental theme of the game is CONSENT.

Link has no voice in this game. It is overtly stated that Proxi speaks for him.

There is no choice in being Hero. In this game, when it's discovered that he's the Hero, he's immediately elevated in rank without his say. It's stated that he didn't feel worthy of it, but he would try his best. He is thrust into the spotlight and slammed with the responsibilities of Hero like very few Heroes are.

A major plot point is Cia's obsession with him. His say doesn't matter. His revulsion doesn't matter. She's an ancient sorceress and who knows how long she has been watching Link. I doubt she saw him and decided to attack his era the next day.

Another bit is the emphasis on how the Hero and Princess are destined for each other. Zelda has far more autonomy in the game than Link through her use of the Sheik disguise. It feels like "Of course Cia isn't an option: he's destined for Zelda!" Link's opinion? Who knows.

His soldiers turn traitor on him. They get to choose their side, turning on Link for something which isn't his fault and for something which counts him as a victim in the war. I see it as a popular theme in fanon: Link was the cause of the war. Not Ganon with his chosen actions. Not Cia. Link.

The major choice he made was at the beginning when he chose to run out onto the field and join the battle. Soon after, Proxi found him, made the comment about how quiet he was, and the rest was history.

Almost every Hero got some sort of choice at the beginning of their Hero's Journey. They COULD have turned away. This Link didn't get that choice. He didn't get any choices regarding his role in the war, Cia's obsession, how his soldiers-turned-traitor viewed him. And what everyone remembers about this Link is not that but the moment he gave into his pride. Ow.

[pyrrhocorax]

Re: Sweden, Norway, and Denmark's Japanese dialects in Hetalia (and potential implications to their characterization) (with briefer notes about Fin and Ice)

Thanks to @nordickies for being the spark that lit the fire to write this post. This information also personally has informed some of my personal takes on the Nordic 5 for over a decade now, so I hope it is useful. A lot of this was more common knowledge back in the livejournal days of the fandom.

Disclaimer: my Japanese is limited and by no means do I claim to fully understand all of the cultural complexities surrounding this topic. I will try, where I can, to back up my claims with at least somewhat credible sources especially since I am someone who is not Japanese in origin either ethnically or culturally, however I DO know more than the average person would because I have lived in Japan, was exposed from my practical birth to the culture and language waaay more than is typical due to me living overseas, and I have studied the language on an elementary level in several academic settings. I am by no means an expert (I am a wildlife biologist by trade), but all of this is done in good faith, and if you do know more than me (especially since I am limited in my ability to get access to academic texts right now — nor am I going far out of my way to find those, as this is a meta post about Hetalia of all things and I am not going to do a whole giant thesis about this for one post), feel free to correct me and/or send me further resources, as I want to convey as accurate of information I can as possible. Part of my motivation for making this post was to spur conversation and hopefully have others who know more than me contribute to the ongoing conversation, to which, I encourage those who read this post to check the notes for any further updates. Another note that I also do not originate from a Nordic country, so there may also be additional layers people from those countries may be able to add. Thanks! Let's begin.

*********************************************************** Like several characters in Hetalia, the Viking Trio speak in unique Japanese dialects that further make them distinct and characterize them in Japanese. Sweden speaks in a Touhoku dialect, Norway in the Tsugaru dialect (which is a specific type of Touhoku dialect), and Denmark speaks in Ibaraki dialect. The Ibaraki dialect is sometimes seen as belonging to the Touhoku dialect group or the Kantou dialect group, and the classification is debated. Generally, Touhoku accents are characterized by slow speech, the slurring of words together, and the muttering of words — as well as being associated with rural country folk (Kumagi 2011, direct PDF download). This dialect is often translated into English as a redneck/hick accent and drawling speech — and as those who speak it are often characterized or stereotyped as unintelligent folks from out in the sticks. Kumagi cites Inoue (1977) as saying that Touhoku dialects are "degraded at the bottom in the Japanese language" scoring low on "intelligence and emotion-related associations." One American English rough equivalent (not localized, but in terms of reputation in U.S. culture) by my best estimations would likely be Appalachian dialects, which are also stereotypically characterized as being a hillbilly, unintelligent, and rural accent also featuring drawled speech and often truncated speech (source). Like many Touhoku dialect speakers in Japan, Appalachian dialect speakers often hide, mask, or reduce their accent, especially if they relocate someplace outside Appalachia, in order to seem more credible to others, as it is generally seen as an “inferior” dialect of American English in the wider culture (personal/family lived experience, but also a good radio piece on it here). The other way Touhoku dialects are translated in media are as Upper Midwest or Northern Plains dialects of American English (not the most credible source, but a lot that is on here that I can confirm to be correct). This characterization is likely a more accurate candidate for the Nordics (and may be why Hima chose this dialect group for them), as many immigrants from Nordic countries settled in the Upper Midwest/Northern Plains (source, personal experience living in this region for a lot of my life). Touhoku dialects are also a more northern dialect group, which geographically coincides with the Nordics being, well, northerners!

(Map of Touhoku dialects regionally) I have not been able to find any information re: if Sweden speaks any particular type of Touhoku dialect (or if it is more broad), but I will talk a bit about how his speech was transliterated in early scanlations before moving on to the other two. Because of how slurred/more truncated/less intelligible Touhoku accents generally are (and remember, Den/Nor/Ice did not make their appearance until well after Swe/Fin did!), likely early translators decided to chop off letters/make Sweden's speech seem less intelligible in order to convey that to readers. Unlike Norway and Denmark, Sweden also often speaks in shorter sentences/phrases in Japanese, and given that Finland canonically says "it's just hard to communicate with him" (see Running Away with Mr. Sve) that is also likely why early Hetalia scanlators before official translations of the comics were available (note: god this is making me feel old as hell) made the decision to give him the speech patterns that they did, and that ended up spreading through the fandom. When the other Nordics with their regional dialects dropped, given how Sweden’s vocal trait got translated into English and then fandom ran with it to varying degrees of intelligibility, I think the decision was made to not translate Norway the same way to cause less trouble in fanworks, while the Ibaraki dialect did influence how Denmark was translated (more on that below.

Norway speaks in a very particular Touhoku-family dialect within the series that is generally not well-reflected outside of the source material at all. The Tsugaru dialect is spoken in the northwest part of the country, specifically in the western part of Aomori Prefecture — Tsugaru dialect is a particularly unusual dialect, even by Japanese dialect standards, by being one of the most difficult dialects in Japan to understand (source). Even within Japan itself, people speaking this dialect often have to be subtitled on television for other Japanese audiences to understand, and there have been occasions where the dialect has been displayed on television to marvel at how strange and unintelligible it sounds to other Japanese speakers. Sometimes speakers of this dialect have been characterized (or mischaracterized for comedic effect) as French in Japanese because the odd sound and unintelligability of the dialect (source). Kumagi (2011) also states that "[...] within the Tohoku [alternate transliteration of Touhoku] dialects, Aomori [prefecture in which Tsugaru is spoken] dialect is at the bottom [of the hierarchy]," meaning that even among the already disrespected Touhoku dialects, Tsugaru belongs to the worst of the bunch in terms of reputability and respectability in Japanese perceptions. The Tsugaru dialect is a source of fascination, comedy, and disrepute/low standing all at the same time. While we don’t know why Hima selected Norway to have this dialect, I have a few proposals. First, this gives him a similar flavor to the other members of the Viking Trio while keeping him distinct — while Ibaraki is a more southern dialect geographically (for the region), Tsugaru is spoken both more north and more west than it. So if you map their dialects out on a map, their geographical location to each other also somewhat resembles their actual locations as nations to each other in the Nordics! Which is neat!

Second, Hima characterizes Norway has being slightly otherworldly and unusual largely due to his fairy-friends and such. But I also think that he likely chose Tsugaru for him not only because that makes him seem like he’s out of this world, but also because Japan is kind of fascinated by that dialect in particular despite not holding it in high regards by it too — sure, it is a hick accent, but it is an interesting hick accent. I think the fact that Japanese speakers sometimes liken the dialect to French is interesting specifically because of how Japanese people often view the French — French culture something that is often romanticized and idealized, and given how Tsugaru dialect can sound French-ish to Japanese speakers, that may be why Norway is kind of designed as the “pretty boy” of the trio by the fandom? In the same way that “Paris Syndrome” is a thing, where Japanese who go to France are often shocked at how their idealized version of France does not live up to the realities of the country (trust me it's real there is a wikipedia page lol), I think you can argue that in-universe Norway can be seen in a lot of different ways depending on the preconceived notions of how you view the dialect. If you view it as French-like and think it sounds interesting, you may find it alluring/beautiful. If you think it is crass, you'll look at it with disdain and disgust. If you think it just sounds silly and stupid, it is. If you think it is nostalgic (as Kumagi states that this is the only positive association this dialect has) and has a close association with nature/pastoral life because of that, it is. I think Norway in canon is characterized on all four of those axioms at the same time (if you really wanna pull canon receipts I will at another time) which makes this make a lot of sense to me as to why that dialect was chosen for him. Third, I think that given Norway was largely the worst off of the three kingdoms for most of history, it makes sense to give him the worst accent in terms of reputation/status out of all of them, too. Note: specifically, re: how Norway uses "brother" in Japanese is also interesting when referring to Denmark. What he is saying is "anko" (あんこ), which literally means "young man/eldest son" directly translated and is specifically only used to mean that in northern Japanese dialects. A good way to put it is it is like people in the U.S. use "bro" as a catch-all term for a similar-aged guy you are trying to get the attention of kind of informally, in the same way you can say "nii-san" to both mean "older brother" and also "guy who seems older than me I am addressing informally" I guess?? Funnily enough, which I didn't know until researching shit, it apparently also means bottom (homosexual) in prison slang??? Which may or may not be intentional I guess on Hima's part, and could also influence your characterization of Norway as a result. Finally we move on to Denmark. The Ibaraki dialect is characterized by number of things, but for our purposes I think that the two most important traits are the general lack of polite speech and the slightly faster rate of speech (unfortunately, my only written sources I can point to are wikipedia and TV tropes again, but I have heard this orally from someone a long time ago - I looked for more credible sources but couldn't find any easily). Because of it being debated as to whether or not is a true Touhoku dialect or if it is actually a Kantou (more southern/eastern) dialect, I think you can also argue that makes sense given Denmark is kind of the "gateway" into the heart of Europe geographically. People have generally translated this as him being excitable and more casual in the way he communicates to other people. I have been able to find less resources on this particular dialect and how it is perceived culturally, so I will sadly have to leave it at that, but from my understanding he is generally translated appropriately in the manga from what I have seen, with the -in' instead of -ing and ya instead of you to have it seem more relaxed/familiar/casual.

Final notes on Finland and Iceland: I cannot confirm this personally, but from what I can hear from Finland, it sounds like he speaks pretty standard Japanese to me, but take that with a grain of salt since I am not the expert here. Which, dialect-wise, places him as the odd person out (which fits with Finnish being the linguistic outgroup of the five) and also puts him as the relatable “stand in” for Japanese people learning about the Nordics — reminder he is the one who introduces them all in that one comic (see The Nordic 5+a) and even earlier comics (see Running Away with Mr. Sve), and we’re viewing the Nordics from largely his perspective). Since Finland in this series is largely characterized (and often deemed a poor stereotype by Finns) because of the Japanese perspective on Finland/Finns, it makes a lot of sense Hima used him kind of as a self-insert for Japanese readers/viewers to understand the Nordics from, as of the Nordic nations, Japanese folks are likely going to have the strongest familiarity/connection to Finland because of the Moomins. Please take the following information about Iceland with heaping grains of salt, but from a memory, I believe he also speaks the Tsugaru dialect, at least some of the time???? This makes sense he shares the Tsugaru dialect with Norway, as he’s Norway’s in-canon sibling, but I have a vague memory of a meta post I cannot 100% confirm or deny exists re: him only speaking the dialect/the dialect coming out more when he’s alone?? This following is speculation since I cannot confirm/deny that right now with my current abilities, but if it is true, would also be an interesting level to his character and make sense — it puts further distance between him and Norway if he purpsefully doesn’t speak the same way as his brother when his brother is present, and it also is reminiscent of my own experience living with people with discriminated accents who then mask their “less desirable” dialects in their teens/20s so they don’t get discriminated against as they move up in the world. Kumagi (2011) states that "Therefore, young female native speakers of Tohoku [alternate transliteration] dialects feel ashamed of their dialects and hesitate to speak them in big cities such as Tokyo. They are made to feel inferiority complex about their dialects, which are stigmatized as unfeminine". Since Iceland is very much characterized as a teen in canon, I think that this makes sense to do in the broader context of Hima’s choices. The specific reason as to why I state that I believe he speaks Tsugaru some of the time but not always is because there are some panels he speaks without it and some where he does seem to have an accent (HWS Chapter 112, relevant screencap below, this is the only time he speaks like this from what I can find in scanlations/translations, but it has to be a deliberate choice). Would love more info on this from someone who knows more about Japanese than I can do.

Again, please check the original post and/or notes for any future additions that I will add/edit accordingly (with notes as to where/when that happened) if any other relevant information surfaces, but I hope that was at least a little informative and interesting to read. I consulted a bunch of other resources too (read a bunch of papers I could find online), but a lot of those I read several months ago and no longer can find :x otherwise I would list them here.

Let me know if there are any typos/things are unclear, b/c holy shit this took a lot more effort and time for me to write up than I thought it was going to, and I am too tired to proofread it after spending several days on it. X_X

[ask2ps]

i really wanna hear more about the 2ps possessing their 1ps?? do they swap bodies or does their original body just go limp?

a) it's not quite a "body swap." the phrase i've used in past writings for it is "overwriting." i think "suppression" would also be appropriate. the 1ps are, if all goes to plan, "put to sleep". they essentially become a repressed memory. oliver set it up like this because he didn't want the 1p nations trying to constantly win back their body. even so, some nations put up a real fight as they're overwritten (and maybe even a little after if they're strong/stubborn enough... ahem ahem america) italy is not one of them though, partially because 2p italy got him in his sleep.

b) yeah they just go limp lol . they're empty husks, now. free meat. england would try a bite if it canada would let him

[gremlins-hotel]

you are nothing without my support | commission for @codesm

[yuri-puppies]

ok now that my joke post about how kabru looks like an evil advisor but is actually just a guy helping out his friend by providing an accessibility need has over 10k notes, are we ready to talk about orientalism and the evil vizier trope and how the whole meta joke of kabru as a character is that he triggers all of these red flags associated with brown antagonists but he's actually a really upstanding guy? and how that panel is a continuation of that joke?

[littledead-ridinghood]

It’s not that Jason came back to a changed family where he didn’t fit into the gap he left behind anymore. It’s the fact that his family never scooted over to make more space for him once he returned.

[fantasydreaamer]

I love the cinematography when they first met. The lighting comes from Anne's direction and he starts to be illuminated by it. Challe is chained in darkness, representing his empty opressed existence, until Anne comes, showing that his life will change forever for the better. Furthermore, in the LN it's shown that his hatred for humans slowly dwindles.

In Lafalle's fortress the cinematography is spot on too. Lafalle is in total darkness reflecting his heart and villain story arc. He's actually Challe's shadow, and the representation of his darkness, what he could've become. But on the contrary Challe is illuminated and the light comes from Anne's direction again, showing that she has influenced him positively and inspires him to be better. This foreshadows Challe's hero arc, Lafalle wanted him to join the dark side with him, but Challe refused. They're going to go opposite directions.

[tenderleavesbob]

I am bored and am procrastinating cleaning my room (again), therefore I have decided to go around and send asks with what I have decided to call a “Yap Pass”

Feel free to yap about whatever you want whenever you want. You can start yapping as soon as you get this or later on when you feel the need to just go off about something

You may also just ignore this ask entirely if you choose to do so

Hi! Were you able to finish cleaning your room or is it an eternal task?

I'm always happy to yap. This is a weird topic for yapping, so everyone can feel free to ignore it...

It's really popular in fanon for Warriors to be the object of hatred and anger for his role in the war. My poor baby. He's an ideal example of victim blaming for that. I brought up a different take in one fanfic, and I might continue it at some point.

What if, instead of Warriors's role making him an object of scorn, it makes him a desirable object. He was part of the reason Cia started the war! She failed and now Warriors is a legendary captain and hero with close ties to the royal family. If a noble could win him when Cia couldn't, imagine how that would affect their standing!

Poor Warriors would still be a shiny, pretty object on a pedestal. I could go on for hours how that seems to be his theme, how this would fit with that theme, and how that must affect his self-esteem and how he views himself and his worth. <3 <3 <3 <3

[ameliafuckinjones]

In regards to the Revolution, I'm of the opinion that it wasn't as simple as England didn't care. That is not to say he was particularly engaged either. I believe that he understood that France and Co support of American independence was a ploy to divide his attention and possibly weaken him. However, he was of the opinion that, even should America somehow prevail in gaining independence, America would fail in establishing a solid functional post-war government, eventually resulting in collapse/chaos, and that in the end he would be able to sweep in and reclaim his colonies after dealing with matters in Europe. What he did not count on was America actually succeeding on both fronts (the war and setting up the government that followed it). So, to America, it may have appeared that he simply didn't care, but from England’s pov, he was like, playing 4d chess. You kind of see this reasoning reappear during the American Civil War, where some British politicians see an opportunity to end the American experiment once and for all by potentially aiding the Confederates, and again during the Great Rapprochement, when after finally coming to terms with the fact that an independent and increasingly powerful America was there to stay, they simply laid out a plan to rekindle relations with the former colony.

You have to remember that England, at his core, is an incredibly pragmatic being, especially when it comes to the logistics and stratagem of politics and warfare. America (and im going to be referring to America as she/her from here because Amelia is who i kind of associate with the title now) assumes he didn't care because had she been in that position (which in my headcanon America eventually was with the states during the Civil War) she would have fought tooth and nail to keep her colonies (which again, she did with the states). She would have been completely driven by emotion in every decision she made in such a conflict, and it would have been abundantly clear for all to see that she truly cared. England is more measured, cool, calm, and collected, even when he might be panicking internally. And that was how he dealt with America's independence.

[ask19thcentury-doctorgilbert]

"To summarize, Devai can either be born immortal or they can be turned. Those who are turned require the help of a Mentor to help them adjust to their new life otherwise they become what my people call an Orphan. Speaking from experience, it's something you'd be wise to avoid.

There is... One other way to create a devas, but such a practice is considered taboo among our kind. It's probably best we leave that topic be for now,"

[athensandspartaadventures]

OCtober Day 3: Corinth Physical Notes

I'd have to go back and look for more about Corinth's design in terms of how I arrived at it... I've always kind of pictured her as someone who has the appearance of a mature lady, and someone who looks deceptively soft. She's got a very defensive, rocky personality in spite of it all!

I haven't been colouring these, but her natural hair colour is probably a light brown (similar to Megara's hair colour). She experiments with various dyes to bleach her hair in the sun, I've heard lemon juice, vinegar, or even pigeon droppings were used in greco-roman times, but I'd have to do some more serious research.

[batrogers]

So, which Links pay their taxes, for real?

This is a somewhat fast and loose approximation of my recall of historical taxes, who paid them (or didn’t) and how, how they were collected and from whom, and what kind of taxation was even possible under different governments. This is pulled from a couple decades of study into historical society and books I’ve read on feudalism, the social duties of knights, and government structure and instability in both medieval Europe and the Ottoman Empire, among others.

Notes on organization:

1. While this is a response to a Linked Universe post, I am going per game not per Link because a few games must be split. The implications about taxes are drastically different between LttP & LbW, and Minish Cap & FSA. I also wished to include Spirit Tracks bc it’s fun. I am not linking the inspiring post, because I don't believe in attacking people for a ten minute list just because it twigged my history brain.

2. I am excluding games in which Link is not implied to be a tax-paying resident of the country he’s in, so Majora’s Mask, Oracle of Ages & Seasons, and Phantom Hourglass are not included.

3. There are usually overlapping taxes in a society. Here I will mostly address taxes on residents, on vocations or landownership, whether they can pay in coin or in kind, and if they have a household that would pay tax for them.

4. I have placed Hyrule Warriors in Child Timeline here for a few reasons, mostly related to army structure implications, the martial norms of the game and the two preceding ones (large standing armies in FSA and HW; mentions of “prolonged wars” and very military flavoured royal regalia in Twilight Princess.) Obviously this doesn’t strictly mean anything or oblige agreement, but its my habit to do so and I wished to explain the choice.

I apologize so much for how long this is. If you wish to read it in a different format, it's also on AO3. This is 2000+ words. I suppose if you click, I hope you enjoy.

A note on Knighthood:

Knights were a specific, highly trained profession often (but not always) associated with landownership, either someone who was in the household of the landowner, or who was the landowner themself. The trappings of knighthood (weapons, armour, and horse) were quite expensive and belonging to a family of knights implies a specific degree of social status in and of itself.

While a sovereign can in theory bestow any title they want on anyone at any time, usually this requires that there be some service rendered for which this is a gift. (Fucking them, or just being hella attractive, counts.) Because of this, there is a wide variety of things “Knight” can mean, but here we will presume it means some degree of professionalism and attachment to a social status that is both someone who collects taxes from subjects and pays them to a sovereign in turn.

IIII

Skyward Sword =

There is no evidence of centralized government in Skyward Sword, therefore the taxes are going to whoever is in charge of the settlement. They were likely paid in kind (material goods), although Skyloft does have coin. Given we know who’s basically running Skyloft, we can guess they were paid to Gaepora, and at least one tax-funded organization: the Knight’s Academy.

Did students pay taxes? Graduates might be exempt from some taxes if still in service to the city. Afterwards, given he’s usually presumed to be married to Zelda, we can say Link is either paying taxes (or hearing about it personally at dinner), and/or helping collect and distribute taxes to others.

Or, even funnier, setting taxes on the new community because they need supplies to build it.

Minish Cap =

There is a central government in Minish Cap, because they have a monarch! This is probably a small territory: some “kings” have a few villages and fields and that’s it, but it is a castle which requires taxed goods to function because it’s not producing its own.

Link’s grandfather is a blacksmith, and also alive therefore if the census tax is paid per household, Link has nothing to do with it. If its paid per business, he’s an apprentice or employee so it’s still paid by his grandfather. Depending on which taxes were being paid when, they might pay coin or in kind (eg. Labour or goods produced.) While people absolutely did lie and cheat and not pay taxes, I expect the con artistry didn’t involve “refunds” in a modern sense, but that’s probably tax history specialization territory...

Four Swords =

This game doesn’t have enough of a framing story to comment on its social structures, but is superficially similar enough to Minish Cap we can assume the situation matches.

Ocarina of Time =

We literally see Talon paying his taxes in kind in the game. Like, you can’t pay milk as a lump sum so delivering it reliably to the castle could be counted towards his taxes, or he’s getting paid enough for it that will be paying for it later. Either way, supplies are delivered from Lon Lon Ranch by its owner who is still alive after the game and presumably will continue to be responsible for it until he is no longer owner of Lon Lon Ranch.

(Malon likely is a valid heir to Lon Lon Ranch. There is no reason to assume marriage affects her legal claim to Lon Lon Ranch. It is not common for a woman to lose her property in marriage – British law is the exception to historical norms – so even if Talon died she could still be sole and/or primary owner of Lon Lon Ranch, whether or not she is married.)

Link starts out the game not even on a Hyrulean census, with no property to his name, and no social connections. He is not paying taxes because he does not legally exist. Until he is counted on a poll as a resident of either Castletown or Lon Lon Ranch, and until he’s considered an adult (usually by means of acquiring personal property or skill of any value) he’s unlikely to be taxed.

Now, if we include into the assumed connections to the Hero’s Shade who died in elaborate plate mail we get a very different answer. Someone who owns elaborate plate mail of that sort has significant money. He may have received it as a gift for service to the crown, but if so it likely wasn’t the only gift. Plate mail is often associated with knights; a knight of some consequence is likely attached by some means or another to property. Knights under a King usually collected taxes for them... So, in a world where Link has platemail and is a valued knight of the Hylian Crown he may also, like Skyloft, be the person collecting taxes to pass them on. Whether or not that means he now technically owns Lon Lon Ranch by means of owning the land it’s on.... I leave that up to you.

Wind Waker =

Outset Island most likely operates like Skyloft: there is a headman or prominent family who collects surplus to give as aid, either in terms of money or food or services. Within that space, Link living with an invalid grandmother and also underage sister was probably one of those families receiving surplus as social support, possibly on top of whatever his grandmother was still capable of in her old age.

However, Link is implied post-game to leave with Tetra. What taxes did a ship and its crew owe? Harbour dues, customs, and other duties! This varied a lot and was usually addressed whenever someone docked at a controlled port. Often questions were asked about where the materials came from, more or less scrupulously. Sometimes people cared if you just happened to have something without a sound origin, that you had taken from someone else... like we see Tetra’s crew doing in-game...

It may indeed be possible Tetra (and her crew) are wanted for tax evasion and Link gets to be included in that, whatever his age.

Spirit Tracks =

This boy works for the centralized government’s transit system. If he doesn’t pay taxes, it’s because he doesn’t owe taxes because he’s working a tax-funded job and likely has been since he was an apprentice. He is possibly also union and knows the local tax law in extremely nuanced detail. He will judge you for not paying your taxes.

Twilight Princess =

The start of the story is also framed around the village blacksmith making some kind of tax-like offering to the royal family and setting Link up to take it. This is likely not a normal tax, but it does tell us that Ordon Village is considered a designated social unit within Hyrule and therefore we may assume that “Ordon Village” is a taxable entity in its own right. Link, as a resident of Ordon Village, would pay his portion of the village’s tax to the Mayor who arranged for its delivery. If Link marries Ilia, you can expect once again this is someone who either hears about taxes over dinner, or is helping collect them.

If Link leaves and moves to Castle Town, he’d have the joys of all the things large city residents pay for, up front or not, that village residents who are not transporting food and goods long distances but those will be sales and customs taxes, not per-person taxes based off the census or his vocation.

Four Swords Adventures [Game + Comic] =

Link’s family is explicitly positioned as either a knight family, or a legacy castle guard family with close personal ties to the royal family. He also has a living father, who is implied to survive the game/comic. As such, with Link a minor, he’s not paying taxes because he’s not liable for taxes. He also may be paying taxes by means of collecting taxed goods from the lands over which his family has ownership and paying a portion of that income to the Crown themselves.

Interesting, this could also tie into something I’ll mention in more detail below but one form of “evading taxes” can be “refusing to do labour.” If he is from a family whose young men are supposed to provide service to the Crown in the form of military labour, “leaving” is a crime.

Hyrule Warriors =

In this game, Link explicitly starts as a base soldier. It is possible for soldiers to be a form of population tax (and/or control) especially in larger kingdoms or empires. He likely did receive regular pay, but he might also have been considered legal property of the Kingdom, eg a slave. Either way, his upkeep was entirely from the taxes that went into the coffers, whether it was in food or kind. Post-game, he’s likely been involved in rebuilding which again would be in large part executed by taxed goods and labour. He might even be part of the apparatus collecting or setting taxes, especially if he becomes close with Zelda herself.

Link to the Past =

Link is explicitly stated to belong to a knight family, with an adult family member who is (arguably) alive at the end of the game. If he is paying taxes, he’s paying them from taxes paid to his family. Not paying your taxes as a knight family is infinitely more suspicious than not paying them as an individual, because then your monarch wonders what you’re using that money for. Is it rebellion? It better not be rebellion.

Link Between Worlds =

THIS Link is a Blacksmith apprentice. He does not have any known adult family. He may be assessed as part of the household he is apprenticed to; he might be assessed as independent depending on his age and where he is in his training and what the local tax law looks like. If there is a guild he may be assessed by means of his membership... but that may also be a separate tax from what he’s paying per the census. He could likely avoid it altogether, because he’s not exactly important at this age and social rank.

Ravio, on the other hand, is in some way involved with the Royal Family of Lorule (Hilda is personally betrayed he left.) However, Lorule is a failed state. There is no means by which they can collect taxes, nor distribute them... which is likelywhy Hilda has no control over her guards. (People aren’t very obedient when not getting paid.) Recovery to a state where taxation is reliable and people feel it’s worth doing will be a long road.

Zelda I & II =

Same as above: Hyrule is a failed state, at best in the process of recovery in Zelda II. People likely do not trust the tax collectors who do exist to pay their dues to the Crown vs keeping it for themselves. This is a matter of power rules. Link, a minor with no property, is likely of zero interest to anyone unless they sell children. In Zelda II, where he lives close enough to approach Impa with a question, he may be paying taxes if he has a vocation or he may be helping work in the castle, which brings us back to he’s collecting, distributing and/or paid by taxes.

BOTW & TOTK =

Hyrule here is NOT a failed state because they do not have a central government attempting to exert control. Here, things are more like Wind Waker or Skyward Sword: village mayors or prominent families control local taxation. There is limited intercommunity interactions, which are likely a matter of market tax. Link, if he settles in Hateno village, would be accountable to them.

In TOTK, we do see some kind of centralization: there’s the joint effort to construct Lookout Landing and the monster patrols, both of which would require outside support until local agriculture begins. Which communities contribute is hard to say, but most villages at this time are more than prosperous enough to spare the means. A new settlement would reduce overcrowding, increase the land available to farm, and so on: all good things for a prospering world.

(This does NOT imply they are re-establishing the monarchy. None of these groups call themselves “royal”. They’re monster patrols, not royal guards, and Lookout Landing, not a new Castletown. The location has access to already-quarried stone and trade routes going for it, after all.)

Given how Link behaves in both games, it seems likely he would contribute whatever surplus he acquires to these efforts. Out of every Link, I think he is the most likely to be cooperative with taxation... although there may be some arguments about what his taxable means is. Should this be paid in rupees or bokoblin guts? Let’s negotiate!

TL;DR =

Taxes vary wildly across time, space, regions, and forms of government. While some Links live in similar social circumstances, we have at least four really distinct categories: the Knights, the failed states, those with vocations, and the villagers. Similarly, many forms of taxes are for social support, things that Link tends to be characterized as valuing in the games. When people refuse to pay, they either do not see the request or authority as legitimate, or do not have the means to do so.

IDK it’s just infinitely funnier to me to say “Wind Waker Link is wanted for tax evasion because Tetra has never paid a harbour duty tax in her life” vs stating the evasion without cause. All the best!

[vahvah]

I feel something of a pity when I see how the fandom ignores Egypt's potential.

Just think: dude was the strongest muslim state for a century. Was a shia caliphate. He fought with the Byzantine E. and western european crusaders for the Holy Land - and won. Was a sunni caliphate and the Guardian of Mecca/Medina, third if you count the center in Syria and the center in Mesopotamia/Iraq. Even after the Ottoman conquest, he was always a “special” province, with his own wars, his own government. Almost conquered the Ottoman Empire itself in the 19th century. The Levant, Libya and Sudan have been his bitches for centuries. After all, only Britain, the strongest empire in history, could conquer him, and he was still on his own. During the Cold War, he headed his own bloc of Arab states against the same bloc of Saudi Arabia. And even despite the failure of socialism, Egypt is the most important state in the Arab world, literally the head of the family.

And the fandom sees this guy as a dreamy pyramid fan? They portray him as small, feminine, raised in Turkey lol what???

Dude was literally a beast of sword fighting, one of the centers of islamic mysticism, as well as orthodoxy and major political players. Yes, he himself taught a lot of people and things.